Superfan

Vancouver author Jen Sookfong Lee joins the podcast to talk about her latest book Superfan. Jen uses her lifelong obsession with pop culture as a lens to explore family, grief, the power of female rage, Asian fetish, and what it costs to resist the trap of being a “good Chinese girl.” I pines over Andrew McCarthy and Jen muses over whether Kanye West will get a second chance in the court of public opinion.

Listen to a previous interview with Jen here:
The Shadow List, Season 2, Episode 8

Books and Resources discussed:
The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan
The White Lotus, HBO
Normal People by Sally Rooney
Superfan by Jen Sookfong Lee
The End of East by Jen Sookfong Lee

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Transcript

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What Where is Andrew McCarthy in this book? He is barely mentioned. And I have your favorite is he Do you have an Andrew McCarthy problem you? Hello, welcome back to the Red Fern book review. I am your host, Amy Mair. And today I'm joined by Vancouver author, Jen Sookfong Lee talk about her new book Superfan. I just wanted to give you a little background on Jen. In 2007, she published her debut novel The end of the East, which shines a light on the repercussions of immigration and the city of Vancouver. And since then, she has been a prolific author. She's written novels, nonfiction, anthologies, a middle grade book, and a poetry book for regular listeners of this podcast called The Shadow list. And I interviewed her last season on episode eight. She's a CBC Radio columnist or was, and she has her very own podcast on all things, Canadian and literature called Kent lips. But today, we're here to talk about super fan. And so with that, I wanted to say hello, Jen. Hi, how are you? I'm great. I'm so this book. First of all, why don't you give everyone just a little? Can you give a little Coles notes? What is this book about? How would you just elevator. This book is a memoir. And it's about my relationship with pop culture and how our relationships with the things that we love or the things that we sometimes hate actually says a lot about who we are and the choices that we're making and all of that good stuff. So I wanted to start with a bit of a superficial question, because the fun thing about this book, and I think the reason why I would highly recommend it is you're having a good time on the one level and the other. You are very raw and honest. And it kind of weaves in and out and I think it anyway, that's what I liked. But on a very superficial level. What Where is Andrew McCarthy in this book he's barely mentioned. And I have your favorite is he Do you have an Andrew McCarthy problem? I do. And I and it's like, I just I actually I love the book except for that. And I was reading it and there was actually a it's a section of the book where you talk about his archetype. That kind of and it was interesting to read about that because I was super obsessed with him. But the sensitive young white man, yeah, you mentioned him later, but barely in passing. So obviously wasn't really on your radar. Ah, Andrew McCarthy, okay, like let me just qualify this. You're a little longer than me. I'm a little young for Andrew McCarthy going to be quite honest. Having but having said that. So I think my main problem with him is that he was in pretty in pink, right? He was Molly Ringwald. love interest. And then there was Deki and Annie Potts. And the thing about that movie. First of all, the dress she makes in the end offends me on so many levels. However, the video held that movie is that you have ducky. And you have the character played by Annie Potts, who are very great, colorful, sort of secondary characters. And it makes Andrew McCarthy look really boring. I mean, and also what's his face. James Spader, isn't it? And he's also pretty interesting. I mean, it's evil and gross, but he's interesting. And then And then so when ducky is saying to Molly Ringwald that he loves her play by Jon Cryer? Why not choose ducky he's sweet. Well, 30 plus your old you which is Ducky, but before that point, I don't know. But he fits into this archetype. So clean. Explain this. Knocking. Yeah, yeah, the sensitive young white men. That archetype is like in a lot of a lot of romantic comedies aimed at younger women, you know, teenage girls or women in their 20s where often these women are given options as to what kind of man they want, and there's always a sensitive If you know a sensitive guy, and there's a less sensitive guy, sometimes the movies feature the sensitive young white man as a kind of antihero, like in a movie, like pump up the volume, or even Heather's, if you want, any of those types of movies say anything. And it's the kind of, it's the kind of character that I think a lot of young women will really start start to fall in love with. Because when we're teenage girls, sensitive boys are less visible, they're probably quite shy, they're often not playing the sports, they're not the ones who are going to make the most noise at at any given event. And it seems like that kind of boy is what we actually all internally want. But, you know, not not present in our lives. So it's a very effective thing when you're writing a movie or reading a book to have a guy like that. But those guys are often deep down inside, they're just as problematic as any other boy, you know. There's exactly so what was that? Like? Because you interviewed Ethan Hawke last time. But then here you are, as a writer, and a grown up and doing this important interview, and then you must have been, at the same time a little bit. Wow, I can't believe I'm interviewing. I was beside myself, because I had written most of that particular chapter that I talked about that archetype was on film. I'd already written it, like most of it, and the it was done. And there was really not much Ethan Hawke could do to change that. Partly because Ethan Hawke is also known as characters, right? are two different types of people. But interviewing him was, if you can imagine, so if you've got opportunity to interview mantra, McCarthy, you would like, lose your mind. Like, it is so strange for somebody that I had watched, basically my whole life and had loved my whole life, and had actually been critical of also to, like, be in a Zoom Room with and have him say my name, and like, look me in the eyes and answer my questions. And, and I say this to everybody, they always ask me, like, did he disappoint you? I'm like, I'm wrong. He was actually really lovely. And so I don't know, we sent a book to him. I don't know if he'll read it. Any well, he might. Maybe well, okay, so, um, okay, here, here. This is a question I really want to. So what also is unique about this book, you know, you're an established writer, you have a lot of credibility. And you approach popular culture, as I feel like you would a very serious subject, maybe even an academic subject. And you treat it with respect, even though, you know, you can have fun when you read this book, because there's lots of fun references. But how, why do you think of pop culture that way? You seem to think it's, like, a significant value in our lives. Mm hmm. I think that pop culture is very much it does two things, as most culture does. It drives the conversation and it drives, it can drive the conversation, but it also reflects back to us what our preoccupations are. So I think that in examining, and being really thoughtful about the choices that we make, and the things that we love, we in turn get to be more thoughtful and introspective about who we are, and how we interact with people who we are as a community. I mean, if you're looking at something that everybody is really into, so say, for the last six months, everybody was talking about the White Lotus, right? The TV show was Jennifer Coolidge. And if we really think about what it is that we love about that show, then we start to understand ourselves a little better, and then we'll understand others a little better, right? So I think everybody, let's just say in the time of COVID really liked the White Lotus, because it was about vacation, and fun times and all of that. But also, because we're a society of cynics. Now, it can't be like that there always has to be a murderer, like someone has to die. And I think to that it says a lot about our sort of conflicted relationship with the idea of like, luxury travel, how that works in terms of climate change. And also like how that kind of stratification of like tourist versus the people who work at a resort. These are all things that we all think about. And if we think about that a little more, we'd start to make I think, better decisions just in general. No, I know. I mean, who doesn't love the white lows we talked about last month? She liked it did this second season? Was it as good for you? What did you think about the second season? The problem with the second season is is that you know that there's always the nobody is what they seen, because that's what we learned in the first season. So you're always waiting for the other shoe to drop with every single one of those storylines. And then if the shoe didn't drop as dramatically as you imagined you ended up getting a little bit disappointed. So I think that for me was a bit ruin that sense of like, oh my god, there's more to this person. Right? and like, you know, like in White Lotus season one when Armand, you know starts taking a bunch of drugs and parties with the with his employees that's like oh no I can't believe is doing that. But like in season two whenever anybody did anything I'm like yeah, of course because we're expecting something outrageous to happen. So that was but I thought the way it was to was really funny I thought they gave Jennifer Coolidge a lot to work with, which I really enjoy because who doesn't love her? And I really actually enjoyed Aubrey Plaza. And she was quite a she was a bit of a surprise to me her perform her performance was really good. Yeah, it was. It was good. I also heard a reference I heard the Creator talk Mike White, and one thing he was talking about his kind of what influenced him, and he said the prostitutes he was for the prostitutes. He's influenced by Laverne and Shirley. And that's a perfect actually, they were the best part of season two, that I thought they were great. His whole idea. Is there working working class girls that always find themselves in a bind, or like crashing a wedding or? And that I thought that was interesting. Like I thought it didn't, I wouldn't you know, you can tell he has a lot of affection for them because of the only characters in the entire season who get what they want. Oh, yeah, the only ones who get a happy ending everybody else does not. Okay, now for more like serious question, you talk a lot, okay. You talk about your relationship with memory. And I feel like this is a theme for you, and a lot of your work. And you talk about you lost your father when he was young. And I think you were 12. And you said, you compare losing him for your love of pop culture and maybe wording this wrong. But basically you said there were layers to him, you knew him. But there was a lot you didn't know, there just wasn't time and you weren't old enough to ask these questions. And then you also have this kind of faraway love for famous people. Can you explain the parallel? Yeah, so like with my father's memory, because I was a child when he died. And I actually have very few memories of him being healthy because he was he was battling cancer for quite a number of years. I think that there's a lot of distance between me and the real person who was my father, both in terms of time, but also memory. And I think that that distance is parallel to the distance that is actually between me and a famous person, like, the distance between me and Keanu Reeves is vast, clearly, I don't know him, and he doesn't know me. And yet, I create these sort of like, really rich, emotional connections with the famous people. In the same way, I have had to create a kind of relationship with my father, because there wasn't one not really, beyond, you know, like, what he gave me as much as he could in the time that he had. But I there wasn't, I still don't really know, if what I remember about him our memories at all, or if they're stories or what, like I, it's really hard to know. And there is almost no point in trying to separate those things. Anyway. I mean, it is what it is, right? Okay, so another thing you mentioned, I, of course, love everyone else love the Joy Luck Club when it came out. And you talk about that. Critically, I think you may be softened on it later in your life. But you say for better or for worse. This The Joy Luck Club was how non Chinese people learned about your culture. And it was the version of Chineseness the English speaking world was ready to accept. Can you explain? I guess first of all, the popularity of that movie was a huge, huge movie and book were both huge, like the Amy like Joy Luck Club was a huge, huge bestseller like for a debut book from an unknown author. It was she was a debut author, I didn't know she was a debut author, and she got paid $50,000 for it at the time, which is actually quite a lot for 1989 or whatever year it was that she sold it. And I think she it was something like hundreds of weeks on the New York Times bestseller list, like no joke, and it was a it was a huge book. And the movie was also like hugely popular. So I mean, I think that the popularity of of the book in the movie really rides on the what I call emotional melodrama. And that that is not a dig at Amy Tan that there is the emotions there are quite melodramatic sort of relationships between mother and daughter, between friends, all of that. And I think that people love tragic stories about families. And that's what that's what the Joy Luck Club actually is at its core. That's what it is. And I think that at that time, added to that dimension were things like the Second World War in China, which most of the western world didn't really know about. Or add to that. You know, just to a tiny bit of using air quotes, quote unquote, exoticism. And, like the sort of cracking of the code, I think that Chinese culture was. What's the word kind of not comprehensible by the Western world for quite a long time that there were barriers to understanding what our culture was like the mahjong tiles confused people, the chopsticks, confused people. The sort of commitment to the family unit also really seem to confuse people. So I think that Israel a Club opened that up a little bit. You know, pain, Mahjong is just like gin rummy, just with titles and not cards. So you're like all this other stuff. And that's great. And I think that when you're the first one, because I think that the Joy Luck Club truly was the really the first sort of like, pop cultural phenomenon featuring mainly Asian, mainly Asian characters with really Asian themes. And Chinese specifically, when you're the first one, you're always going to be the one most open to criticism, you're always going to be the one that is going to be thought of as archetypes or stereotypes. And I think that I don't envy Amy Tan's position there, and I think I do though. 100% Respect what she did. There is no me without Amy Tan like truly. So then there wasn't another scene you talk about is the tea ceremony in karate kid too. And I thought that was really, I thought that was really interesting. You talk about the actress Tamlyn Tomita, who is a Asian actress, and she's in the second Karate Kid, and you saw her and she's I looked her up. I didn't remember her. She's very beautiful. And you saw representation. But then there's the scene and you were young. You can tell me how you were. But you had you were didn't totally like what you were seeing. And you were uncomfortable, but you didn't really know why at the time. So can you explain the kind of mixed feelings you had about the way this actress was portrayed? Or her role? Yeah, I should say challenged me to is also in the Joy Luck Club. And also, she is She plays Waverly in the Joy Luck Club. She's the one who rules the role of condoms in the air and says what you have to say about this mom? Anyway, she's also in. She's occasionally in Cobra Kai, which is the Karate Kid sort of sequel. That's yeah, Netflix. I think it's Netflix. And anyway, so I would have been about 10 or 11 on cockatoo came out. And she's Rob Mateos love interest. And she was super cute. Like they were teenagers at the time. And there's a scene where she serves him green tea, and she does a tea ceremony where she whisks it, and then pours it but if you watch the scene, you'll notice the only pauses for him she doesn't pour any for herself. And then at the end, she kisses him Barber, you know, undoing the bun in her hair. Because I guess when you undo your bun, I mean, do you want to kiss somebody I don't know. I like it, like 10 or 11 years old. I didn't like the kissing part, probably. And that was you know, uncomfortable for me. But it was also that sort of like, overly performative sort of sign of her Japanese nurse and her case that I found really uncomfortable because like, as, you know, an Asian Canadian kid, we did it. Perform things like that. For people like that's not what you do. Like, you know, like when my when my niece just got married this past summer, she had a traditional Chinese tea ceremony at her wedding reception. That's when you do these things like you're not, you're not doing this because you want to like seduce some kid like I just, it was just really a lot. At that time the discomfort was with the was with the performance of the ritual, but also with the kissing, and how those two things in that one scene are like tangled up together, which means so what is it that Ralph mochi or the character? I can't remember his actual name in the in the movie? What is it the Ralph mochi was attracted to? Is he attracted to her as a person? Or is he attracted to the the markers of what I would call Asian fetish? And you talk a lot about that in the book at very, I mean, the thing about this book, okay, that goes into, you are incredibly open in this book. Is this the most open you've ever been in your writing or your poetry is like that, too. Yeah, my poetry is a bit like that. But you know, with poetry, it's, it's I'm not sure what it means. Like, truly. Well, that's because I find poetry heart but poetry, like it could mean this or it could mean that we're years obscured by many things. Yeah. So what is that like? I mean, I, you're, you seem like a pretty open person, but how did you make those choices and are there Like what to hold back and what to put in? And I mean, it makes it. It's what makes the book like, I don't feel like you're holding back at all. But what does that like to do that? As I think early on, when I started writing it, I actually had a couple of things that I knew I would never write about. And they are, you know, the most obvious one that I talked about before is I'm not wasn't going to talk about my marriage. Because my ex husband and I share child. And for me anyway, and this is different for everybody. The last place my child needs to read about his parents marriage that failed is in a book like that's not, I'd rather have the conversation with my child myself. And also, in fairness, my ex husband, and I have a good co parenting relationship, we're friends, this is not like, I have no interest in exposing dirty laundry, now that he has any actually he's very ethical guy. But there's that. And then there are a couple of other things that didn't want to write about. So I never did. So that was really important to set. I think for every writer who's going to attempt to memoir setting those boundaries early on is really important. However, when you set those boundaries, that also means that whenever you do choose to write about, you're going to have to do it really as fully as you can. There is no way not to you're not writing a memoir to just like say something really vaguely and then move on. Because that's not what the reader ever wants. The reader always wants to know more. So yeah, the process is some of it's easier than others. I think writing about my childhood was much easier, because it's a long time ago, I think that writing about anything recent was tough, like, you know, you writing about it, oftentimes before you've had a chance to process it emotionally, which is the which is a really actually hard position to be in. Okay, and then I want to talk about your mom. Yeah, so that you have a well, like many of us, you have a complex relationship with your mom, not everyone has that. But how did you now you're a parent, and you kind of talk a bit about you talk a lot about your son, and not not specific ways. But you know, your day to day as a parent, and then your day to day as a kid? What, how are you doing things differently? This time around? Or what? Yeah, I mean, like, as a mother, you mean, yes, as a mother, Oh, I'm so much more permissive than my mother was there. i The one thing that I really feel that, you know, we all have, none of us are perfect. None of us are perfect mothers, or parents or whatever, or perfect daughters, for that matter. But when my son was born, I, I really made a conscious effort to always sort of honor the child that is rather than try to make him into the child that I wanted him to be. So I think for my mom, she really wanted her daughter's to fit into a certain kind of mold. And that was largely driven by the fact that she wanted us to be safe and secure in a, in a world where, you know, having a lot of daughters is not safety and security is not always guaranteed for them. So which I understand, but for me, I I really just want to help my child become the best version of who He truly is. That's it. And if he doesn't want to play soccer, I mean, I wish he'd get more exercise, but like, also, it's fine. It takes art classes instead, it's fine. And do you feel that you have to explain that to other members of your family? Are they? Is it just a different time now? No, I don't think so. My sisters and I, our parenting styles are almost exactly the same, which is really hilarious to me. Because they're, it's very much on like our parents. So I had a therapist one time say to me, where did you learn to be a good mom, if your your parents were like this, or if your mother was like this? And I and I said well for my sisters, right? So my older sisters had started having children when I was a teenager, because they're quite a lot older than I am. And I got to babysit their kids. I got to I spent so much time with those kids when I was young and with them when they were young families and I learned so much from watching my sisters really try to be a better mother than my mother was. And truly like no, we all kind of all parents soon, that's fine. Okay, and I wanted to end by asking what what are your current like today? pop cultural obsessions and what are you into right now? I mean, okay, here's the thing. There are people who are very famous, like the Kim Kardashians of the world. And then there are people who are just kind of like internet famous or they're just kind of famous are among a certain like, celebrity watcher meaning me. And so I'll give you internet famous I'm very into what is ever was happening with Paul Miskell. Do you I don't really remember him. normal people. Do you know the normal normal people by Sally? I mean, I know the novel. Yeah. So they made it into like a, I think it was like a limited series television series or streaming. I think it was streaming. And Paul Moscow was engaged to obscure musician named Phoebe bridgers, who you might also know because she was one of the people who came forward and tried to sue Ryan Adams for sexual harassment. The singer Ryan Adams, not Bryan Adams. Right. Okay. Anyway, they were engaged. Appears it's over. She's been seen around town with a comedian named Bo Burnham. And Paul, Moscato has been seen with sercial Ronin now. Yeah. So it's like an Irish thing made in heaven. That but then also like I'm, I'm quite interested in what Kanye West is going to do. What? How? And see the reason I'm interested in that is actually it's not because I haven't invested emotional interest in Kanye West. I don't or Yeah, as he is called. No, it's It's because famous white men get get opportunity and opportunity for second and third and fourth chances all the time. Now, I really want to know if the culture is going to give you another chance. I'm curious. Oh, interesting. And if you're going to give someone like Brad Pitt, or Johnny Depp, or Louis C K, or any of those guys a second chance? We'll yea get one. I don't know. And I am really curious to find out. I have no, I have no feelings either way. Because what he's done, he said some terrible things. But I would really like to know if the machine that is going to get Johnny Depp back on track is also in motion for Kanye West. Did you see the interview with David Letterman that he did? A few years ago? Yeah. Did you see that? No, I didn't see it. Um, I had sympathy after I listened to it. Because I can see there's clearly mental health issues. Like I never thought of it like that. I just thought he I mean, of course there is. But when you hear him speak, you can see he's just really tortured. Like Anna. I don't know, made me feel a little bit. Well, I have some thoughts behind that. Because like one of the books I've acquired for ECW press in my day job is a book a memoir, and an examination of how mental health is treated especially with women. You know, how we treat people with mental illness? And are my author should not my author, the author KJ Ella, who's great, shortest little male and stuff. She also has bipolar disorder, right? Which is what he has, and the way she described bipolar disorder. You could not he could not be more for someone with bipolar disorder you know? And I and I'm thinking like all of this sort of like sympathy and empathy I have for KJ, who I really enjoy and is a really great renter and is really good, great person. Will that be extended by the world at large for you? I don't know. Okay, what are you working on now? Because you I was when I was researching you for this? i You right all the time? I don't I actually don't know what's going on. Oh, liquid. I found by the way. We're on not on video, but I was on my bookshelves for the new year. And I found your first book. You got you got a hardcover. That's it. I can't remember what it says I got it at book warehouse. But I can't remember if it was a gift or what I bought it, but I haven't read it yet. So now I'm excited because I'm doing like, oh my shot my shelves. Yeah. cleaned out my books. And anyway, there's that but go for it. What are you working on now? I'm almost finished a horror novel. So we're just almost finished that I had. So what happened was is it uses a lot of like, Asian demonology. And yeah, like from Hong Kong and Taiwan and stuff. And I there's a section of it, where I use some of the demonology from the Philippines. So I just had it out for sensitivity read with a Filipina Canadian writer I know and she did a great sensitivity read on it. So I gotta I gotta incorporate her feedback because she was great, precious delay on if you're if you're listening to this. Thank you so much for your help. Oh, yeah. That's great. Okay, well, thank you so much for coming on. That was a lot of fun. And the book again, is super fan and it's out now. So yay. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Amy. Okay, bye. Hi. Thanks so much, Jen for coming on the podcast to discuss Per fan, I had a lot of fun talking about pop culture and then more serious topics. And I think that's exactly what this book is like. In fact, I would say the book is more a memoir about her life and struggles growing up as a child of immigrant parents of visiting her father, quite nuns. And then also how pub culture was really a life raft for her, and how she loved it and reviled at a time. So it's, I highly recommend it. Now, I'm going to end with a new feature that I would like to include. In the podcast, I have a new Voicemail icon that you can click on off my website and read the phone book review.com. Or you can also go on Instagram, and you can find links there to it. And what I'm trying to do a podcast is a one way medium. And I'd like to change that by including feedback and questions from you. So you can go on there, and the newest now you can ask me anything you could ask me. What books do you recommend for certain, a certain genre or a book club? Or you could tell me some things that you're loving right now that you're reading into really like about the podcast or ways I could improve? So check that out. And I would love to hear from you. Okay, so thanks again for listening. Bye